In this episode of Specified Growth Podcast, Craig talks about his unique background and how his passion for equipment began at a young age. He also discusses some of the key things that equipment managers need to do to be successful, the concept of the internal equipment triangle, tips and training options for equipment managers, and more.
Listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/exploring-equipment-management-with-craig-gramlich/id1453642650?i=1000731629214
Listen to the podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5a0WZnvLdq7idBhJFW86zc
Transcript below.
TATS:
Today’s guest is Craig Gramlich, he’s the Managing Director at Lonewolf Consulting. Alright, Craig, thank you, thank you for coming on the show.
CRAIG:
You’re welcome, happy to be here.
TATS:
Great. Your background, quite a number of years in and around the construction industry, fleet management, maintenance, would that characterize what, sort of, the bulk of your experiences?
CRAIG:
I would say for the most part, Tats, the bulk of the experience was heavy equipment, a bit of accounting, and then a bit of operational frontline project management experience. But my focus and my love and ambition was always with equipment. I’ve got stories dating back to childhood – I don’t know where you want to start, but yeah there’s lots there.
TATS:
Awesome, I like these childhood stories – because I always kind of find – it’s not always the case, but it’s commonly the case where, you know, where people kind of eventually end up with some sort of tendency people had, you know, as they were growing up, so.
CRAIG:
Yeah, yeah, that’s kind of cool, yeah. The one that stands out for me was being the kid that would be in the shop, I grew up in oil and gas, so I would sit in the lunchroom with the crew and probably heard and learned a whole lot more than I ever should have at a young age, and this was in the days when there wasn’t really a whole lot of PPE to go in the shop either and so you could just walk out into the shop, and I’d crawl up and over all the equipment and I’d smell the oil and the grease, and I just absolutely loved it and little did I know fast forwarding time this love would actually turn into a meaningful career for me, but in the middle of all that, I also grew up on a farm, picked a lot of rocks, made a lot of big rock piles and had a lot of time to philosophize about life I will say, as I was operating that tractor and picking rocks and thinking about life, my love for equipment was always been there. Everything from that young age in the shop, to farming, or even younger playing Lego, and even to this day that love is still there. I still act like a kid when I get around the big heavy equipment for equipment shows.
TATS:
Love it. I mean, I saw your education was around, I guess, organizational things. At what point did you kind of get into sort of the construction and the equipment side?
CRAIG:
Great question, great question. So, this probably is going to reveal a little bit, is coming out of high school, I knew I wanted to go to post-secondary, and I had a choice, U of A or U of S, and one city had an NHL hockey team, one had a terrible highway. So, my decision was a little bit easier for which school to go to, but the harder choice over that one was which area of focus. I loved engineering but I was scared of math, but yet I’ve been told I have such an engineering mindset, and it’s been one of the things that has allowed me to succeed no matter kind of what role has been put in front of me. So formal education, I started life as an accountant. I came out with a Bachelor of Commerce, Major in Accounting, Minor in Organizational Theory and Design, and I went into a manufacturing company and I like to say I did 3 to 5 at a manufacturing company where I realized that wasn’t for me long-term. I got headhunted to a heavy equipment contractor for an opportunity for equipment, an analyst role, and I fell in love with it. Had a chance to build up their internal rates program and build up an full cycle equipment management program, and I started advancing in the ranks and as I did so, the senior leaders really valued field experience, so if I wanted to get into these senior roles, I had to get some field experience. At the time, I had a young family, so no, not doing it, it just was not for me. Thinking, I shouldn’t have to do this, you know, that kind of naive belief. Fast forward a couple years, that want to climb the ladder kind of tugged on me again and the family was stable and I was like, yeah let’s do it, let’s go into the field. So I worked with the management and had a choice as to which division, I could go into mining, industrial, piling or pipeline, and so, of the 4, the most rounded group that I’d see everything operations related from tip to tail, was the piling team. I’d be able to do the estimating, I could handle the safety, I could do the quality, I could do the contracts and client negotiation, the billing, all of that, tip to tail, everything. So I did, I jumped into the piling team and started off as like a coordinator at first and did some vacation coverage for people on sites, and then I was pulled into a PM role. One of the other leaders was like this guy needs to stay on the site because we have a client that likes him, and so I took over a project that had been failing, it was in the red and by the time we were done it clawed it back into a double-digit margin, which was beautiful, and so I actually learned I’m really good at it. I was really good at project management and really good at estimating and managing the field crews. I discovered had a great rapport with field crews and that probably dates back to my time in the shop as a kid, so it was at that moment I started to learn how to translate languages across the equipment, operations and accounting teams and how to listen for what was really being asked and not necessary said – it’s a skill that stays with me today.
TATS:
Funny, like an accounting plus let’s say project management, operations, accounting plus sales. I mean, those are like some of the most killer, you know, backgrounds, you know, I hear, you know, often. No, that’s great.
CRAIG:
To go a little bit deeper, there’s a gentleman who’s a pioneer in this space and I’d be remiss without mentioning him, his name’s Mike Vorster and he’s like the grandfather of equipment economics, and so I crossed paths with him early on, back in ‘08 I want to say, when I was doing the analyst thing and trying to figure out programs and whatnot, and he shared with me at the time that those with an understanding of equipment that understood finance were like unicorns. If you could understand both, you’re like a unicorn in the industry. So, he and I have kept in touch and I would call him like my mentor. So, we talk practically every month and so I’ve kind of layered in the operational experience now and I’ve kind of built on that saying that he shared with me – so if you’re an equipment guy who’s got finance experience, you’re a unicorn, right, but if you’re an equipment guy who’s got finance – AND has operational experience on top of it, you’re like the tip of the unicorn’s horn – but you don’t know it. That’s the thing is you just, you don’t understand how critical that skill is and how important it is to organizations until you are talking with them, supporting them, and answering their questions because it’s something that you take for granted. It’s more than just understanding or just facts, but yet organizations are still struggling to communicate across their teams.
TATS:
Yeah. Yeah, we’ll talk about some of the programs and the stories you have there, but what was your, like, idea or thought on what it would be like to be in the field and what was it there once you got there and you dug in, what were your sort of perceptions and sort of realizations as you went through it?
CRAIG:
I would say there was a whole lot of assumptions made before I even got in the field. You know when you’re sitting in the office and in the corporate office no less that you kind of have this assumption like the field has everything, they have all the support. They have all the infrastructure, they have all the resources, the organization and everything they need to succeed, and then when you get boots on the ground, and you walk into the job site and you open up that door on that 12×60 ATCO site trailer and you’ve got a folding table for a desk and a coffee maker with day old coffee in it, and then you see the crew working from there. You realize after doing that for a couple of days, this is where the money’s made, and it’s like the group out here really doesn’t have the resources and things that the head office thinks they do. The hardest one at the time to accept for me was the lack of internet connection. So, nowadays we’ve got Starlink, which is amazing, and that’s absolutely beautiful on job sites but at the time, we had these we practically had dial up internet connections and these bootleg configurations where you’re bouncing antennas off the site trailer or making a negotiation with a farmer’s house to link off their Wi-Fi and things like that just so you can do your job. Those are things that you just take for granted when you’re in the office but in the field, those little things become big things, and once you kind of recognize that infrastructure is lacking, it forces you to raise your head up out of your computer and out of your contract and out of your drawings and go, okay, what can I do with my time that allows me to advance the work and do the best value possible for the client, and for me it turned into working with the crew. I’d get curious and ask questions – what motivates you, how do you work safe, why did you say that, why did you swear at the client and do you understand what I have to do to smooth things over now. So you start to build relationships and you really start to see what matters most in the field. It slows you down to focus on what matters most, and I had that ability to see it and connect the clients and the crews with the production, and it became very, very easy, Tats, to do my job because I just had to make sure everybody had what they needed to succeed – materials check, they were getting paid fairly check, they’re getting paid on time check, the client was actually seeing progress in production check, the client sees you’re not having incidents and working safely so the spotlight’s elsewhere. It just became natural to lead.
TATS:
Yeah, I mean, so going into the first time you had to create one of these programs, what did you start with and how did you build it up? Because I think, you know, some people are going to be like, great, I want to know how to do this but how do I get this going? I want to hear the first time you went through this and what you learned along the way.
CRAIG:
What kind of program are you thinking of?
TATS:
You were talking about equipment, you know, various maintenance and other programs, I don’t know, it could be various ones, like one of the early ones you were sort of tasked to like, get up and running.
CRAIG:
Gotcha, gotcha. So, one of the early ones we took on was actually related to a buyout. So, about the time that I was in the operations project management team, which was a defined period of time role, our company got sold and our division got sold off. In doing so, we had to move everything over into a new accounting system and a new ERP system and a new software, which really kind of changed and impact of the way business would run, and there was nobody brought in from the equipment team at the time. They brought in the operation staff, they brought in some accounting and some safety and whatnot, but there was nobody from equipment. So, I kind of raised my hand and volunteered and said, hey, I can do that too. I’ll be a PM, and I can do some of the equipment, you know, it’s a kind of do it off the side of my desk thing because I love it. So, when I did that, I started with basic things like what’s our asset list and what’s our fleet counts, and how many of these do we have and what are they worth, and you work with an accountant to get a CapEx plan, and then you help them with a chart of accounts for how you want to see and manage your costs, and then it turned into bringing in the concepts like equipment economics. I want to see a profit and loss for my equipment. How much did I charge it out for, how much did I spend on it and am I getting return on it, and then it moves into things like, okay, we got to look at utilization and are we actually using the gear. So, overall, it really focused on the 4 key things that, you know, Mike Vorster would teach, right? Which is, you got to know your costs, you got to keep it working, you got to stop it from breaking, and you have to manage your fleet age, and those are really the 4 basic things any good equipment company needs to do and there’s a lot more underneath of that. We’ve got some tools and stuff that we’ve built up with my own company that goes a level deeper, but really at the heart it’s those 4 things.
TATS:
Yeah, very cool. With what you’re doing now, what does that look like?
CRAIG:
Yeah, so, what I do now is I build equipment management leaders. I help companies to implement equipment management and heavy equipment economics concepts. The teachings of the Mike Vorster, the AEMP and the CEMP centrals, and all these other groups, incl. ISO 55000. We help organizations build up their programs, but in order to do that, you have to figure out, what and where are their strengths, where are the weaknesses, where are their gaps, and before we even start working with them, we often ask them, have you read this textbook or have you taken this course, and so that allows us to make sure we have a common terminology and a similar language to begin with. Then that would move into us doing an assessment – we have a proprietary tool we call the equipment wheel or the equipment cycle. We’ve written about it in the Construction Equipment magazine, but it really pulls back on those 4 key things that Mike would talk about and goes a level deeper. So, underneath of managing your fleet age, you’re going to have things like, do you have fleet standards that tell you what type of equipment to buy and what it needs to do for you? Do you then have procurement, you know, how are you buying the goods you need for the equipment and the parts and repairs itself, and then do you also manage your fleet age? How are you handling your CapEx, and so, there’s things like this that are underneath of those 4 key topics Mike would talk about, and we assess the companies on each one and we do it in a very unique way, I’ll say. So, a lot of consulting firms or organizations, they would be pulled in as a specialist, they come in, they do an assessment, they write you a report and they send it to you and it’s probably a hundred pages long and you open it and realize it’s a 100 pages long so you set it on the side of your desk and hope to read it when you have time but it inevitably collects dust and before you know it, it falls off your desk never to be seen again. I know that because I’ve hired consultants like that in the past, and as much as I really wanted to make use of the reports and stuff they give you and implement their initiatives, you get punched in the face with the reality that you’ve got a full-time job and your people have a full-time job and all these new things you want to bring in, you just don’t have bandwidth and capacity for. So, how we’re different and why we’re different is we’ll work with companies with a ‘do it with you’ or ‘do it for you’ kind of approach, and if it’s a do it with you, we work with your bandwidth and capacity that you have and we move at your pace. The do it for you, you know, yes, you can have that, but the thing there is change management and the lasting change comes into question because if you pay somebody to build your future, by the time you hand over the keys, are the individuals able to maintain it and keep it up and move it ahead, right? So, I find that the do it with you approach is the best one for lasting change and it’s what makes our approach even more unique Tats. Because of the concepts of equipment management, we’ve found there’s 3 key pillars or 3 key points for decision makers with heavy equipment management, and it’s a concept we call the internal equipment triangle, and each point on the triangle is one of the decision makers and they are the equipment team, which can be like a fleet group or a maintenance group, and organizations can name it differently, depending upon their size, but there’s somebody who manages the equipment. Then you have accounting, and this is your bean counters, your number crunchers, you know, insert whatever term here, and then you have your operations team and that’s really where the equipment’s used to make money, but how these groups form and exist is rather unique. Originally you have a mom-and-pop shop or a sole proprietor who buys themself a piece of equipment and into the field they go to use it and they’re doing everything, the work, repairing the equipment, the bookkeeping, estimating the work, and getting things done, but as you grow and as you buy more gear, you have to hire people and before you know it, your company’s grown to the point where you’ve got specialists in each of those three areas. So, for equipment, you’ve got a heavy duty or a ticketed trades person and maybe a full-blown maintenance professional. For accounting, you’ve got, a CPA or a chartered accountant of some form, and for operations, you’ve got a P Eng, like a professional engineer and operation staff on that side, but as those groups form and as those experts come in, they’re experts in their own area, but where they struggle is that the triangle now has a gap in the very center and that’s where the work existed originally. That’s what the business was formed to do, that’s its function, that’s where it made revenue, but as each of those teams come in, they kind of slightly pull away from that that work, unintentionally, of course unintentionally, they all want to do a good job, but there’s a language barrier and that language barrier exists across 3 key teams and it looks something like this, as you use equipment, so this is for heavy equipment contractors that use the equipment for generation of revenue. It’s going to sound and look something like this, the equipment team is going to believe they are guardians of the equipment. We need to protect the assets because it can’t protect itself, it can’t speak up for itself. Your operations team is going to look at the equipment and go, I just need that to produce revenue, it’s a means to an end for me. I just need it to move dirt, break rock, drill holes, whatever that is, they just need the equipment for that purpose and what ends up happening is they have to bid work, and the equipment team and accounting will kind of tell them how much it costs, so they’ll create a rate, and eventually operations is going to say something like, your rates are too high. Equipment’s then going to turn around and say, well stop breaking it and I wouldn’t have to fix it and it wouldn’t cost so much and then the accounting team is sitting back with a little bit of popcorn watching this go down at first and then before long realizes they’re putting on the referee shirt, trying to get in the middle of this going, okay, what’s going on? It doesn’t matter to me what the rate is, I just want to return on the investment. Each of those 3 key teams, they want the same thing, they really want to produce revenue for the company, they want to manage costs, and they want profit, but they struggle to communicate and interrelate how to do that, and I’ll give you like another quick example about our approach by tying it back to the assessment, and how it matters for those 3 key teams is this: the question you ask each of those teams can deal with the same topic but can be very different. So, let’s talk about unit numbering. Simple concept. Somebody would hear this on a podcast and they would say, well yeah, we’ve got unit numbers, we’re fine, and most maintenance and equipment people would be like, yeah, its standard practice, we do that, but the questions go deeper and sound something like this: for the equipment team, do you use unit numbering? Yes/No kind of answer. For the operations team, it’s are the unit numbers easy to understand, does it make sense to you, and more importantly, are you tracking usage to the units? Are you inputting time and tracking it to the unit? And then for accounting, it looks something like this is, are you tracking costs to the unit? Each of the 3 key teams plays a slightly different part and provides a slightly different piece of information to the puzzle of information that your senior leaders want and need in order to run the business, but it all relates to unit numbering. On the surface it’s just a unit number, but each group uses it slightly different and they have to embrace that importance in order to provide the result the organization needs. So, that’s the tie in and the focus of that internal equipment triangle concept, and how we help organizations is we have deep subject matter expertise across each of the 3 points – we have individuals with experience from all 3 groups and we have a wolfpack of specialists in each of the areas as well. So when it comes to supporting an organization, on the do it with you approach, we can really work alongside their people, use their language and help them change and help them get better at what they do. The ROI is incredible.
TATS:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You talked, alluded to earlier, just to make sure everyone’s speaking the same language, right, you know?
CRAIG:
Yeah.
TATS:
Have you taken this course or this terminology and stuff like that, just as a starting point, and then understanding the nuances beyond that from a group within the organization. Makes sense. So, with all this stuff, I mean, what sort of things that you’re tracking in terms of trends or technologies or things that affect the stuff that you do?
CRAIG:
Right, good questions. So what we’re finding now with the intersection of the three groups and where things are getting a little bit bumpy and clunky for companies is in their software and their delivery, and what I would call implementation of these concepts. A lot of organizations are still using paper timecards. So, when you start to look around at the industry and you see these beautiful things broadcasted out there, like single pane of glass and telematics and fault code integration, and you’ve got all these beautiful concepts out there that senior leaders are going to hear about, the challenge is most organizations in the field are one level above paper timecards. So, when you see the flash of these fault code integrated telematics, and you see the reality in the field of a paper timecard, there’s a big gap in between, and unfortunately, the patience of business leaders nowadays is significantly reduced. The pace of business is quick. You’ve got to move quick, otherwise you can lose out to a competitor pretty fast. A lot of businesses have gone out of business or gone under by not being able to manage costs on their equipment. So, software I see as a key piece organizations have to look at – the challenge is software cannot be a solution on its own, it can only do what you ask it to do or tell it to do. So, if your business doesn’t necessarily have the processes, the procedures, or the structure in place to collect the data, no software is ever going to be able to report the data to you. So, we’re finding that the software is the leveler of the playing field, a lot of organizations were attempting to implement a flashy ERP or a bolt on system, to solve a problem, but it ends up creating more problems then before they even started it or implemented it, it just made them happen faster. Unfortunately, that’s the reality. It just made the problem happen faster and for the work we do, it really shines a spotlight on the importance of those 3 key teams working together, having the structure, the systems and change management. The level of change management cannot be underestimated – moving the field from a paper timecard to a digital time capture tool or digital tools like iPads or an app-based system, it’s monumental for a lot of organizations, that’s a big thing.
TATS:
You know, obviously understanding where you are out in the field, in the office, understanding the people that are involved, but you know, is part of the finding the solutions, you know, sort of solving it manually and then looking, or is it part of, you know, hey, find a vendor that understands the gaps and have accounted for this transition or this, so that the wedge isn’t as steep, what’s- how do you think about it?
CRAIG:
Great question, I love that. It’s a bit of both to be honest with you, and it really depends how switched on your management team and your decision makers are, and why I say that is this is… organizations almost have an evolution to them and businesses have an evolution to them and people are naturally looking at whomever they know and trying to replicate and copy, because they always say imitation is the biggest form of flattery. That’s natural and normal, but there are other industries out there who have stepped over some of these learnings or some of these high dollar mistakes we’ll say, and the easy one I can talk to is an on-premise ERP system versus a cloud-based ERP system, and data. A lot of businesses still believe you need to have an on-premise system, and you need to control and own the collection and flow of all your data and it has to go into that one box, but there’s organizations out there that have stepped over that belief and gone to Cloud directly – and data lakes, and data mining – and it’s still our data, but we harness it in a very different way. I’m going to use the term agnostic, but that’s not the right term. It is data that can be accessed no matter which software solution you choose. So, if today you’re working with a JD Edwards, tomorrow you can work with an Acumatica, but you still have your history and your data because you’ve put it into a separate data warehouse, but you won’t know that unfortunately, if you are only fixated or only looking at the on-premise solution, and the only way you find those solutions is you have to get out to industry, you have to get out to conferences, you have to find consulting firms like us or others who have been there done that, and step over some of the maybe costly mistakes that other organizations have made and be willing to take a risk on something that is a little bit outside your comfort zone – it’s not to say you have to go to what I call the bleeding edge of tech, because there’s a level of tech out there that is always cutting edge, which is also bleeding edge, but it’s finding those tried and true and proven solutions that maybe you hadn’t considered before. This ties in with a book I read a long time ago about The Third Option – there’s my belief as to what the solution is, we have your belief as to what the solution is, and then we can actually find a 3rd option, which is where working together produces a 3rd option that neither could have come up on their own yet is arguably stronger. This option won’t even come to you if you aren’t willing to talk about it and you aren’t willing to actually consider that there could be another way of doing things. This limiting view ties in with what I hear from businesses on the software side – “our business is different”, “we’re unique”, “we need to do it this way”, and that leads down the software path of customization versus what I would call configuration and customization is very costly and concerning because every time you do it, you then need to undo or redo it to properly update most systems.
TATS:
Yeah.
CRAIG:
Whereas if you can slightly modify your process or system, you can just configure things and be much, much further ahead with a stronger solution, but it’s coming back to that, finding that 3rd option.
TATS:
I like that. It’s like, you know, the inventions, right? Over the years, you know, certain inventions are credited to individuals, but if you look at any invention in that period of time, there’s multiple people working on similar things or had similar solutions. One just, you know, got to the patent office first.
CRAIG:
Exactly. I think if a person goes all the way back to the invention of the lightbulb and some of the electricity stuff most only remember Edison but it was Tesla who developed and pioneered most of the things, but it was Edison who filed the patent first.
TATS:
Yeah, for sure. Anything else you want to share that I didn’t ask you?
CRAIG:
I would like to say this, skillset wise on the equipment side (this is going to tie in with the concept of change management for organizations and how we approach succession planning), an important concept is succession planning – businesses will often promote from within, nothing wrong with that. It’s a beautiful thing to build your people up and what-not. The challenge is we’re moving our people into net new roles, like a supervisor, a manager, a fleet manager, an equipment leadership role, that there really isn’t a whole lot of formal education that’s been 1; either given by the company or 2; even exists in the industry, and so when I look at shop and equipment management there’s not a whole lot of formal education that exists out there in the industry. The AEMP has a program for Equipment Manager Specialist (EMS) and Certified Equipment Manager (CEM), and those are great if you are in the mid-level management kind of office level, but if you’re coming up off the tools as a heavy-duty mechanic moving into a supervisory role and maybe just touching into fleet and equipment, what’s there to support you? So, the EMS can help, but what about people management? What about human resources, what about labor relations, what about the obstacles and expectations of the business and your expectations of your senior leaders, and so, there’s all this, I will say, tribal knowledge that you only gain from working inside of an organization for a number of years, and when we move our people off the tools into these new roles we can’t underestimate the importance of that education and wisdom needed for them to be successful. Yesterday they were turning wrenches, and today we’re asking them to manage people. Their natural go-to is to diagnose or troubleshoot a piece of equipment, or help out in the field, but people problems can’t be fixed that way and the expectation from the management and leadership team is very different. Now, you need to think about budgets and, staffing, safety and quality and all these areas that you never had to consider before, and so there hasn’t really been a whole lot of training to focus in and help these individuals advance in those ranks and roles unless you go to these specialist courses. So, you would send your new supervisor, maintenance supervisor to a safety course and learn about just that, and you would send them to a quality course and you’d send them to a labor relations course and you send them to more and more, and before you know it years and years and decades worth of teachings were needed to figure it out which they absolutely do. We’ve packaged together a training program called Equipment Masters that is geared at your fresh off the tools mechanics as well as management, supervisors, or really anybody who works with equipment that doesn’t have a whole lot of background in that area and so, it’s going to cover experiential things like obstacles and solutions for your shop, the rituals for success, how to manage your shop itself, which gets into a little bit of the dollar value management, how to self-assess your equipment program. We actually give people a reduced version of that equipment wheel and equipment cycle framework we created so they can self-assess their area of influence on their own. It’s a 7 week program, only a couple hours a week, but when they’re done and they walk away, they have a one page roadmap that looks something like this (paper held up to camera), and I know people who listen to it can’t see this, but it’s a single document that the individual uses to hold and guide them for the whole year ahead. It’s their whole year planned on a piece of paper with everything that matters to them, the business and their work area. The beauty of it is each person created it, they’re owning it and they’re attaching themselves to it versus it being a top-down kind of directive, and it’s unique in the sense of they’re creating their own projects for things they want to move ahead. The course provides just enough project management experience and expertise to be able to do these things on their own, because otherwise you don’t know how to advance an initiative, how to move a new change in place, like that timecard – to move from paper to digital time capture. How would you move something like that ahead? So, there’s a little bit of project management sprinkled into kind of teach people how to do that, and then there’s just enough in there about maintaining an appropriate level of relationships on the personal side with the relationship management because those relationships that you formed when you are working on the shop floor have to shift and have to change when you move into a supervisory role. This fact is something that’s often downplayed and not fully understood – the crew you used to go out with beers with on Friday, you’re now asking Monday morning to work overtime. How do you do that without caving in to peer pressure? Some can just draw that hard line, but most can’t, most need a little bit of support and guidance as to how to balance results with relationships, how to handle these obstacles and challenges as they come up in these new roles, and so, we packaged a lot of this wisdom and experiential knowledge from working with organizations and from doing it ourselves to build up this course and to give people a simple one-page roadmap for success. It’s unique, and I’m really proud of it.
TATS:
Awesome. I love it. Okay, awesome. Well, you’re a wealth of information, I love the stories that you shared, and yeah, thanks for taking the time today.
CRAIG:
Oh, you’re quite welcome, happy to be here.
TATS:
Thank you for listening to the Specified Growth Podcast today. Make sure you check out youtube.com/tatstalks for video of today’s podcast. Hit the subscribe button for upcoming episodes.
